[00:06] Nan McKay: Are you an older woman with or without experience? Looking for a spark in your prime years? Sarah Hart, an advocate for older women, is here to give you tips on how to approach this next phase of your life. She shares how she did it and how to value women for their thought and accomplishments. Welcome. I'm Nan McKay, the voice behind trailblazers impact. Your beacon to extraordinary women trailblazing unique paths. Our podcast spotlights luminaries whose life stories inspire and empower delivered to your ears bi weekly. Buckle up for another episode packed with powerful narratives and empowering journeys on trailblazers impact. Stay with us. This is Nan McKay and today we are honored to be in the company of Dr. Sarah Hart. She's a dynamic change agent who's sparking a transformative movement aimed at redefining how society perceives and interacts with senior women. With a rich tapestry of experiences spanning from leading training for a Fortune 100 company to championing women in technology, Sarah combines her vast experience with a fierce dedication to uplifting senior women. As we delve into our journey, the prime spark movement and her insights on leadership, get ready for a compelling conversation filled with groundbreaking ideas and heartfelt wisdom. So welcome, Sarah.

[01:51] Sara Hart: Thank you, Nana. I'm delighted to be here.

[01:54] Nan McKay: Sarah, could you start by sharing with us some of the inspiration and mission behind your initiative, Prime Spark? And what was the catalyst that prompted you to launch this movement?

[02:08] Sara Hart: I'd be happy to do that. Nan. I think that sort of the final straw was I didn't get terrific treatment in a doctor's office and it was because of my age, maybe my gender too, but certainly my age. And I left and thought that can't keep happening. That just can't keep happening. Medical science is not paying attention to women very much, period, and certainly not to older women. And that's not okay. So at that point, I was working with a coach and I said, okay, I know what I want to do next. I want to work with and on behalf of older women. And she said, oh, your golden years. And I said, oh, no, not your golden years. I want to work with women in their prime, in their fifty s, sixty s, seventy s, eighty s, and I want to help them find that spark deep inside that will ignite them into the next period of their life. That's interesting. That spark in the prime of their lives. That's their prime spark. And that's where it came from.

[03:24] Nan McKay: Well, you have an impressive background in leadership development and you've held significant roles in major corporations and institutions. How have these experiences informed? Or maybe shaped your perspective on the treatment of senior women in the professional world.

[03:45] Sara Hart: Oh, man. When I first started, and we're talking about a lot of years ago now, I was the only woman. Oftentimes in meetings that I went to, and I was in HR. And so this is significant. As time passed, there certainly were more women. I was in an organization that was the sciences. And so we were talking about chemists and biologists and it people. And so more and more women were hired. But initially there just weren't very many women. And many times I would go to meetings, professional meetings outside of work, or meetings with the company in other locations and so forth. There would be a room full of men and me. And I was never mistreated, but I never really felt part of it either. And this was way before we had any consciousness about this. I didn't realize how much not a part of the groups. I felt they would play poker. I don't like to play poker. They would go to the bar. I'm not a big bar person. They would go out for golf, and I can hit the ball, but I'm not a very good golf player. I think a lot of that time actually was pretty lonely, but we didn't really think about it then. And as I say, I was never mistreated. But one of the things I want is for women to always feel part of the group they're in, always listened to, paid attention to. If they're saying something, that's worth listening to. But the number of times that I have observed, and everybody talks about this, but it's true. I've seen it so many times in a meeting, a woman will say something and nobody will pay very much attention. And then a man will say pretty much the same thing and it's, oh, what a good idea. And that gets more so with age. And I think that that is getting worse because I've talked to young women now, for me, young women in their forty s, and they feel sometimes belittled because of their age. So in their 40s, let alone their fifty s, sixty s, seventy s. And so that's just not okay. It's not okay for the women, and it's not okay for the organization, because the organization is losing so much potentially fantastic information and knowledge and experience. And at a time when organizations can't find enough workers, here are all these experienced older people, men and women. But women bore the brunt of the layoffs during COVID and are bearing the brunt of not being able to get back in. And this is all not okay. And so I have a long history of watching what happens inside organizations, and I can see this so clearly, and that's got to change.

[07:26] Nan McKay: I know exactly what you mean, because, of course, I have sometimes felt the same way. Let's turn it this way so we can kind of talk to each other about this. I think you're right in that I think it's worse as women get older because we are not only facing the gender types of discrimination, in a sense, ignoring us, which is, in a sense, discrimination, but we also are fighting.

[08:05] Sara Hart: Almost.

[08:05] Nan McKay: Like we're being invalidated. Is that the word? The right word?

[08:11] Sara Hart: Yeah, it's very much the right word.

[08:13] Nan McKay: And the question is not whether it's happened that much before and we've overcome it. The question is really what's happening today? And do you feel like perhaps we're going back to where we were to some degree?

[08:27] Sara Hart: That's an interesting question, man, because as many of us did, I went through the women's movement and the years after that, and until the last, say, five to ten years, I have felt that we were making progress. We weren't there, but I have felt we were making progress. But I do feel at this point that we're sort of going backwards. And I don't know that we'll be back to the 50s, twirling around in our kitchen and our krenlins, happy with our refrigerator. I don't think we'll go back to that. But I do think that in this very difficult time we're living in, women's rights are being taken away and being ignored to an extent that I don't think it was true before.

[09:27] Nan McKay: Do you also feel that women are viewed more and more and accepting the view as social objects? In a sense, as sexual objects, I should say, in the sense of the clothes, the high heels, the emphasis on looking sexy. Do you think that it's hard to have that image and also be taken seriously in the boardroom?

[09:59] Sara Hart: Well, I don't know. That is how younger, successful women look now. And when I think sort of what you just said, I think I'm out of date. I am out of date. So I don't know. I don't think from what you just said, in a sense, it's making the belittling or the ignoring or the discounting. Our fault.

[10:28] Nan McKay: Some piece of it, if you buy into it, perhaps that's true.

[10:37] Sara Hart: If I wear sexier clothes and very high heels, it's my fault if I'm not taken seriously. Really. I don't know that that follows.

[10:48] Nan McKay: It shouldn't. It really shouldn't. I don't know that I want to link it that tightly. I think it's more the feeling that we have the projection of the image of what will be success if we do such and such. And it seems like it's a lot wrapped up in how women look. Not how they think, not how smart they are, not how good ideas they are, but the factor of impressions and the factor of how people are taken seriously or not, I think somehow is impacted. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

[11:36] Sara Hart: Yeah, I don't know. Unquestionably, in my opinion, unquestionably, women are from a very early age, rewarded for how they look, how they dress, whether or not they're sexy, all of that. We know all that. We know all that. And so my concern is when that all starts to fade, then how much a woman in the workforce is worth begins to fade.

[12:13] Nan McKay: That's an interesting point.

[12:14] Sara Hart: That's the part that concerns me. So when I get to the point of my hair starts getting a little gray, I'm probably in menopause because I have these sweats and everybody can see what's happening to me. Things that didn't used to be saggy are starting to get a little saggy. You wouldn't call me sexy anymore. I can't even have babies. What am I worth? So if a woman, so much of a woman's worth is tied up with how she looks, then when all of that starts to fade, so does the worth of the woman in a lot of people's eyes. That's what concerns me.

[12:59] Nan McKay: Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective. Because on one hand, women should have the right to look any way they want. And if they feel that society is saying that this, whatever that is, looks good, then I should have the right to be able to look like that if I want to. I think what we're talking about, one thing we're talking about are the consequences of the action or the reason for it or what's precipitating it over here. And the result over here being as you age, if that's the value that you were put, that was placed on you for any reason, is that still the same value that you're going to get when you lose that exterior shell?

[13:51] Sara Hart: And I think in many cases now, the answer is no. And I think back when I was in corporate and in the time that I was there, some friends of mine and I laugh about this and bemoan the days we got up and put on pantyhose and a shirt and jacket and a little tie. And the more we looked like the men that we worked with, the easier it was to be in the workplace.

[14:30] Nan McKay: And that was a costume in a way.

[14:32] Sara Hart: That was the costume.

[14:34] Nan McKay: And maybe what people are saying today is, well, that's the costume. But I think it's hard to be taken seriously sometimes if that perception is there on this side, because people should be valued for their mind and their actions and their accomplishments, and I don't know that we have that freedom. Do you think we do?

[15:01] Sara Hart: Well, huge. Across the board. No, I don't think so. I think that's also true for men, but it's much more true for women. And, Nan, just to get back to what we were talking about before, I think that when I was working, the expectation were that I would dress the way I just described. I think the expectation for how younger, successful women dress now is different. I don't know if they're perceived to be dressing overly sexy, and so how should I value her or if that is what. That's the dress expectation now, as compared with a little jacket, a shirt and a tie, that's the costume.

[15:48] Nan McKay: Maybe today. Yeah, it could very well be.

[15:52] Sara Hart: Yeah, I wonder about that. I mean, I think every once in a while, when I get my knickers in, a real twist about how much time everybody's spending on their cell phone or think, and then, you know, people aren't going to be able to have face to face communication, and they don't understand that. And why can't they even write cursive? And on and on and on. I think. Sarah, get a grip.

[16:17] Nan McKay: Well, let's talk about this thinking. Know, we've said people should be valued for their thoughts and their accomplishments, and the idea of creating thinking environments is really quite intriguing. Could you elaborate on what this entails for you and how it's really crucial in today's fast paced society?

[16:41] Sara Hart: Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Yeah, I do a lot of thinking environment work, and if anybody is interested in that, you should look at the website timethink.com. The work was developed by a woman in the UK. She's american, but she married a british man and lives there. And it's brilliant work. The basis of the work is any action we take is only as good as the thinking we do before, which sounds like a duh, but in our fast paced world, how many times do we sit down and really think through what we're about to do? Not very often. We just do it. And in my work with teams and organizations, which I don't do very much anymore, but it used to be, I used to watch over and over and over again. We don't have time to do all that, Sarah, but they have time to do it over and over and over when it didn't work. When it didn't work. So that's the basis of it. The idea is to help people think really well and for themselves. What do you really think about this? I am biased by this work, of course, but I cannot think of a time in history, in my history, when we more needed people thinking for themselves. And so I think the work is so important right now. And what we have found is, if that's so important, if thinking really well and for yourself is so important, how do we help people think really well? I wasn't taught to think. I was taught to speak, I was taught to write, I was taught to do things, but I wasn't really taught to think. And so what we have found is that one of the main things that determines how well somebody thinks is how they're treated while they're thinking. So is there good attention? Is there equality? Is there a felt equality? Is there appreciation? So there are ten of those, we call them components in a thinking environment. And if some of those are present, thinking will be better. If they're all present, thinking will be absolutely as good as it can be. So when we learn these, the processes, we learn to give really good attention, to give appreciation, to demonstrate equality with all of the components and the work sounds very simplistic, and it is very hard for most of us to do because when the thinking environment, we never interrupt. And if we think about most conversations, we are interrupted all the time. I don't mean to pick on them, but a lot of studies have been done on interactions with doctors, medical doctors. And then when they're asked, how long do you let a patient talk before you interrupt? They'll say several minutes. I let them talk. I want to hear what they. And when it's measured, the actual time is something like 12 seconds. And so if you really want somebody to think for themselves, you can't interrupt. You can't even ask really good questions, because even really good questions are guiding. And so in the thinking environment, we don't ask questions. The only question we ever ask is, what do you want to think about and what are your thoughts? And then what more do you think or feel or want to say?

[20:26] Nan McKay: So would you say it's strategic thinking, or would you label it in any way or just.

[20:33] Sara Hart: It'S your individual best thinking. And whether it's strategic or creative or something else sort of depends on what you want to think about. I want to think about the strategy for the next team meeting, or I want to think about coming up with a really creative idea for the project. So the kind of thinking, as I say, I think, sort of depends on what the person wants to think about.

[21:02] Nan McKay: Good point.

[21:03] Sara Hart: They are invited to think about anything they want.

[21:05] Nan McKay: Well, your role as executive director of the Institute for Women in Technology, it must have provided some real unique insights. Can you share some of those challenges and successes that you encountered in advocating for women in such a male dominated field?

[21:23] Sara Hart: Yeah, I mean, that was one of the real focuses of the institute was to try to get more women in technology. And that has been a goal for years, and it's not changed. It's unchanged. The numbers don't change, and the. And the effort that goes into it goes up and up and up and up, and the numbers don't change. So, anyway, we won't get into that. Well, it was sort of a securitist route that it took to my being the executive director of that institute, because brilliant woman Anita Borg was the founder of the institute. She was one of the very first top women in it, and she was wonderful, wonderful woman. She started the Institute for Women and Technology, and she hired me, actually, to come in, and she wanted the institute and all the work to be a thinking environment. So that's why I started working with the institute. And then, very sadly, she died. And before she died, asked me if I would be the executive director, and I didn't want to do it, but I couldn't say no, so I did it. It was hard because I'm not a technical woman, and all of the women in the institute were technical women. And then there's me, and I'm not a technical woman. I know how to turn on the computer, but if it doesn't happen, I don't know what to do. And so it was really hard, and I saw myself as sort of an interim because I knew that we didn't want this permanently. One of the things that was most fun was that we had workshops for college age women all over the United States. And so we went to big universities all over the United States, and we had workshops using the thinking environment with women who are in very beginning of their it career. And so in the workshop would be these women. There would be administrators, women administrators, and faculty from the college or university, and then there would be women from the community, some group would be chosen. And in one case there was like a battered women's shelter. In another case it was disabled people, handicapped people. There was some group chosen, and they would come and they would talk about what kind of technology would be helpful to them, because our goal was to not make it faster, cuter, with more bells and whistles, but to make it useful. And to make it useful, we needed to know what they wanted. So we would have all these wonderful ideas, and we would decide on through a whole process of using thinking environment, we would decide on three. And then the young women students would take those back to their course for the semester and design them. And so, for example, one of the things that they designed was an automatic vacuum cleaner. Way before that. Whatever you call that thing is now that thing that runs around by itself and scares cats. Yeah, they thought that a long time. This was years ago when they came up with that in the handicapped group, one of the things they thought of, for example, had worked on was having jackets with heaters because their joints hurt, especially in the cold. So there'd be heaters. So it was all sorts of stuff. And it was really fun. And it was helpful because we actually designed and built things that worked. So that was probably the most rewarding part of being there. I just loved it. It was not rewarding, not seeing the numbers for women in technology go up, but this work was very rewarding.

[26:05] Nan McKay: Well, it sounds like it was. And you do see women making strides today. I've got several that I've interviewed on the podcast and YouTube channel Kitty Cheney Reid comes to my mind. But we still need more. We still need more. As an author of three books, three. Could you give our listeners a glimpse into the core themes that you explore in your writings and kind of, what do you hope readers take away from your work?

[26:38] Sara Hart: Oh, thank you, Nan. The first book was I wrote years ago, and it's out of print now, but it was introduction to interpersonal communication, and it was really a fun book to write because it had a lot of pictures that showed body language and people in settings and so forth. And that book, my intention, I really wanted. Well, I had been asked to write that book for the communication 101 in one of the universities in New York. And so it was meant to be the beginning textbook, but it was really fun, and I wanted it to be a fun book that students would learn a lot from and have fun with. I wanted them to learn a lot and have fun with it. The second book I wrote is the upside of downsizing, getting to enough. I went through a major downsizing of my home six years ago now. And it was hard. It was really painful. So I started writing about it, thinking maybe that could help. And while I was writing, I thought, well, maybe this would be helpful to other people because it's about the emotional side of downsizing your home, not the practicality. So it doesn't talk about box this up and take it here and box this up and take it here. It talks about what does it feel like to get rid of things you've had for many years and don't have any street value, but have deep intrinsic value. They may be things that were in your family. I had some things, for example, that my mother had made. I ended up with all the family pictures and I couldn't take them all, and so I had to throw most of them away. And so it's a book that really, I hope helps people when they're downsizing their home because it's painful. I've done a lot of book readings, and I know that a lot of people who are getting ready for a major downsizing have been in their homes 30, 40, 50 years, and they have accumulated so much and so much stuff that's valuable to them. That's hard. My third book is Prime Spark women over 55. It's our time and it's a workbook. It has 30 questions. And the best way to use that book, I think, is to get a group of women together and go through a chapter a week, however often you meet, and there are five questions in six chapters. So meet for six weeks, use each chapter and have each woman answer the question for herself and then come and discuss it.

[29:29] Nan McKay: That sounds like a great idea. I totally agree with you. And I think there's another aspect of this too. On your second book, when you're talking about downsizing, part of the angst, I think, or sadness or, I'm not sure what you'd call it that a lot of us, I think of today is these things that we valued so much, nobody wants.

[29:56] Sara Hart: Right?

[29:57] Nan McKay: I think, for instance, in my way back growing up years, Lennox China was a big, the, what was that thing called where you put everything aside when you were going to get hope chest? That's what it was. You had the hope chest. But no one could imagine. I mean, what you did was embroider pillowcases. No one could imagine that you would be getting Lennox China. But every year for my birthday, I asked for one plate. So I have some beautiful Lennox china. I don't know what's going to happen to know it's not anything. But I valued it so much and it was costly. But that doesn't seem to matter today because people are like, I really don't have any room for it. I don't really entertain like that.

[30:56] Sara Hart: Right. Yeah. When I do my talks on the book, I say, if you're saving things for your kids, don't. Because they don't want your china, they don't want your silver, they don't want your crystal, they don't want your linen. They don't even want the table that it went on. And good luck getting rid of that stuff now.

[31:23] Nan McKay: Yeah, give it to goodwill. And people just have to polish silver. Are you kidding me?

[31:31] Sara Hart: Are you kidding? We have a totally different lifestyle now. I mean, people just don't live that way. In fact, people our age don't even live that way. I was just talking to someone before we came on about how we used to go to each other's houses all the time for dinner and somebody would cook. A big meal would be all set. And I don't know if that stopped with COVID or if it had already stopped. But most of the time now we agree to meet out and go. Yeah.

[32:10] Nan McKay: I'm not sure it was Covid, although that could have been some of it. I think it's just a more casual lifestyle. Maybe that's a result of COVID as well, but a casual lifestyle. I mean, I still have the dining room, I still have the hut. I still have all my dishes in there. And I like to have people. I have. So many of us have relocated, like, I relocated from Arizona, where I used to do that, and San Diego before that, where I used to do that. And now up here, a, I don't know anybody, and b, if you did that, it's almost like you'd set the stage for them, maybe feeling that they had to do it in return. And maybe they don't have that kind of stuff that they've saved. I don't know. It just doesn't seem to be important to people anymore.

[33:04] Sara Hart: I think the only time that it works, and I don't think it works, but last year I decided for some reason, and please, the next time I decide this, somebody stopped me, that I wanted to cook Thanksgiving dinner. And so I spent the entire day and evening cooking, clean, eating and cleaning up and putting away. And it was fun. But, oh, Lordy, if I ever do that again, I hope somebody holds me off, because I used to do that and I don't want to do that. That is exhausting and I don't think it's just that I'm older. It just seems like, look what I could have done with all that time.

[33:56] Nan McKay: Well, it's little things like the china that you have may have a silver rim, and we were taught not to put that in the dishwasher, that you had to do it by hand. And besides that, it might break your china. And it was $50 a plate. You didn't dare do that, so therefore, you don't use it as much because of that kind of stuff, too.

[34:18] Sara Hart: I have to wash this by hand. You're kidding.

[34:21] Nan McKay: You're kidding me. The realm of coaching. Let's talk about that a minute. It's really vast and varied. When you mentioned coaching women change agents dedicated to bettering the world, what specific challenges do you think that they might face, and how do you tailor your approach to address them?

[34:48] Sara Hart: That's a great question, man. I think that for many of us, the major challenge we face is internal. Many of us buy into because it is omnipresent in our society. Buy into the fact that I'm too old to start doing that kind of thing. Who do I think I am? I'm in my late 50s. I'm in my 60s. I'm in my 70s. I'm in my 80s. You're kidding me. I can't do that. I'm too old to do that. The saddest thing I run into are women who have spent lifetime as a homemaker taking care of a home and children and usually a spouse and oftentimes an extended family. They've taken care of the calendars, maybe three or four calendars. They have done everything. They've been on countless boards and committees, and now they feel like they don't have any skills. And I think, look at what you've done. Look at what you've organized and run. Look at your financial ability. Look at your team building. So it's for women who have not been in the workplace. It's that for women who have been, it's a fear of trying to do things outside the organization. I know when I left the organization, I've been. And I was terrified, because my whole life, I'd been taken care of by my parents, by the college, by my graduate school, by the university where I taught, by my employer for all those years. And now it's me. Oh, my gosh. And so the biggest hurdle initially, and it can last, is internal. And after that, one of the big hurdles is even though, in my opinion, it's working for them, many women do not want to think or talk about getting older. I run into women who've gotten really mad at me for wanting them to think about what it's like being an older woman. I don't want to be an older woman. I'm not going to be. Well, I suppose then you want to die. I try not to say that, but if I'm being sort of naughty, I will say that. So you run into women who don't want to think about it. You run into women who think they don't have any skills. You run into a society that thinks that you're worthless, that you're old. You're doing what? And so the hurdles are many, many. But they're worth facing, because there's never been a time when women's older, women's wisdom, experience and skills is more needed than right now. And we have to get to women, older women, and convince them that if they're not now, they need to figure out what is most important to me. What am I most upset about right now? What would I most like to see a change in? And how can I make a difference in that thing, even a tiny difference? A difference. Just go out and make a difference and you're going to face pushback because you're old and maybe you don't have any experience in whatever it is, is important to you, but you do have a lot of experience in doing something and you can make a difference.

[38:29] Nan McKay: And I think so much of it is mindset.

[38:32] Sara Hart: Yeah.

[38:33] Nan McKay: If you think you're old, you are.

[38:37] Sara Hart: Right.

[38:37] Nan McKay: If you think you can't do it, you can.

[38:41] Sara Hart: Right.

[38:41] Nan McKay: So we have to think about how we're being perceived. I don't like to be treated like I'm old. If somebody says, well, dear, calls me dear as a salesperson, I'm like.

[38:58] Sara Hart: Yeah, flight attendant the other day called me honey.

[39:03] Nan McKay: Yeah, or honey or deer honey, mack them. But it's not that you don't know you're old or that you're not acknowledging the years. I mean, the years are the years.

[39:18] Sara Hart: What it is.

[39:19] Nan McKay: What is, is. But I think the thing that I hate most is for someone assuming that I can't do something just because I'm a certain age, I just don't accept that. I'm like, that's ridiculous. But it's a mindset.

[39:41] Sara Hart: It is a mindset.

[39:42] Nan McKay: That's a mindset.

[39:43] Sara Hart: That's why the biggest hurdle, I think is internal for most of us, not for.

[39:48] Nan McKay: That's true. I can sit back and say, well, yeah, I'm old. This hurts and that hurts. I better not go out and do this or that. Well, what are you waiting for? Are you going to sit around and wait to die? You might as well get out there and do what you can do while you can do it. When you can't do it anymore, then don't do it. But I'm not at that point exactly. Right. Well, we are breaking those molds, right?

[40:22] Sara Hart: Yes, we are.

[40:24] Nan McKay: Well lastly, we can't help but mention I think it's Mr. Boo.

[40:28] Sara Hart: Mr. Boo, oh Mr. Boo, my wonderful kitty cat.

[40:33] Nan McKay: And then how has having a pet influenced or enhanced your life and work and think especially in the context of the themes that you advocate for.

[40:47] Sara Hart: Right. Well, this is somehow he's influenced my life. This is a bookmark lessons I learned from Mr. Boo, my cat. So there are twelve life lessons here that he taught me. So that's one way he is 17. That's old for a cat.

[41:08] Nan McKay: That is very old for a cat.

[41:10] Sara Hart: It's very old for a cat. And he has a disease and it sort of affects him but he doesn't know it does. And so far as I can tell, he's not in pain. He does everything he's ever done. As far as I can tell he still enjoys life. He loves to be combed, he loves to sit in the sun. He sleeps most of the time. I mean, who wouldn't like that? And so I'm learning from him, in addition to my twelve life lessons, that you can live any way you want to at whatever it age it is, it's your choice. Now there are people who have big physical problems. Yeah, that is definitely a given. And I see those people, a lot of those people, and it is still the case that how they live is a lot dependent on their attitude.

[42:21] Nan McKay: That's true. And it's not accepting the consequences or not the consequences. I'm not saying it right, but it's not accepting the negativity of what they're going through any more than they have to.

[42:36] Sara Hart: Right?

[42:37] Nan McKay: Is that kind of it?

[42:38] Sara Hart: Yeah. I mean this is happening to me and I hate it. It hurts or I can't do all this stuff anymore or whatever it is. I'm not saying that it doesn't affect me, but I'm going to get on with it anyway. That's the way it is. I'm going to live my life to the fullest, to the extent I can. And it may be very limited now as compared with what I had hoped, but it is still what I can do.

[43:09] Nan McKay: Well, tell our audience where they could get in touch with you, how they could participate in what you're doing. And are your books available on Amazon?

[43:21] Sara Hart: Yes, the two books, the prime spark women over 55, it's our time and the upside of downsizing, getting to enough. Both of those are available on the inside on Amazon. The first one isn't available anywhere anymore. Well, I've got a handful of copies on my bookshelf, but you can't buy it anywhere. The best way is, well, just get as much information as you want about Prime Spark is to go to priwomen.com.

[43:53] Nan McKay: Okay.

[43:53] Sara Hart: Women.com, primesparkwomen.com. That's got all the information. And you can sign up there if you want to, to be on the email list. You'll get the newsletter that goes out once a month, and that is about the only time will bother you. I don't send a lot of emails, so you don't have to worry about getting bombarded. If anybody wants to just get in touch with me, then they should just send an email to me. Sarah Hart S-A-R-A-H-A-R-T. So both names are as simple as they can be at heartcom. Hartcom.com. So sarahhart@heartcom.com I named hartcom before the.com era, so heart is my last name and was communication, commitment and community.

[44:46] Nan McKay: All right.

[44:48] Sara Hart: And then the.com era came in, so then it had to become hardcom.com. So if talk about redundancy sarahcom.com.

[45:01] Nan McKay: Well, that sounds great. Thank you so much. It's been so much fun talking with you. Is there anything else you'd like to add or are you okay?

[45:09] Sara Hart: Thank you, Nan. I love your work. Thank you. And thank you for talking to this time together. It was really fun.

[45:16] Nan McKay: Thank you. Thanks for being with us. Have you seen our new podcast and YouTube website, trailblazersimpact.com? Join us there and please leave a review on iTunes. Check out our new shorts on our YouTube channel, trailblazers impact interviews. Until next time, check out my newsletter on LinkedIn. Also, I host a new lead and succeed community to quickly accelerate your leadership skills and explore our regular website, namckayconnects.com, with new resources.